To me the worst case scenario just occurred:
My son, who is a sophomore in college made the decision to join the Navy. I support it as he is struggling to pay for college and worrying about no jobs when he gets out. ASVAB score of 93. Recruiter has been pushing nuke, while my son was wanting IS.
After researching this forum and other resources we went in with the strategy of either signing for a job you want or going back to college in the fall. NO going in without a job.
He gets to MEPS, goes through the processing and gets to the career selection portion and they give him nuke and a number of other jobs he wasn't interested in. They told him IS wasn't available (perfectly understandable) and to pick one of the others. He initially said he wasn't interested in going any further and would rather leave than sign up for a job he wasn't interested in. They took him to the top guy and he tore him up for a bit and told him my son was wasting his time and to make a decision. So they parked him for a couple hours and someone (obviously the "good cop") came by and said enlisting as a seaman wasn't so bad and that as soon as he got in he could strike for the position he wanted. They told him in the mean time they would keep checking for the IS slot and if it came up would get him in if possible, so he signed on as a Seaman (SN.)
Needless to say when he got home I couldn't even look at him. Not that I was angry with him, but that they got over on him. We met with the recruiter, who was calling ME sir by the time I was finished, and he suggested my son go ahead and take the nuke test as going nuke was the only way to change his contract. I told him that the other way was for us to just cancel it and that we were willing to do so to avoid him going in as SN. I know the Navy needs paint scrapers, but this guy is an absolute waste if they have him coiling ropes on the deck.
His whole goal with the Navy was to leverage his time inservice to his country with a job that would translate to a real world job/experience that he could use. He doesn't have to go in and doesn't feel it is a good investment of these years of his life working food service.
VERY IMPORTANT to note that I am not a helicopter parent trying to run his life. He made this decision on his own and I respect that. He is a strong minded, independent young man who charts his own course. I have just jumped in to do the research so I can help him navigate these murky recruiting waters because I know a number of military guys and they all talk about how their recruiter got over on them or did something dishonest to help them enlist. One guy we talked to today had the same experience as my son (20 years ago) and ended up scraping paint. He said my job every day was either scraping paint or laying paint. Not the best way to go in my book.
The point of this whole thing IS: is a SN a dead end for him, or should he push through because good things happen to those who trust in the system. Would you send a boy, who can do anything with his life that he chooses, in as an SN and hope someone sees his true value and gives him a real job? Am I overreacting? Is it any of my business? Help!
John JBARH Homrighausen
Replies
John H'ausen said:
Some reading suggestions for you concerning life at sea. The American Practical Navigator,Two Years Before the Mast, Moby Dick, Janes Fighting ships, The history of Submarines on the Dolphin News site. Welcome aboard. Your fears and concerns seem to be rather common. That just means you love your Son and want him to do well, nothing wrong with that. But being in the Nav is a Family business! Your job has only just begun. Become an expert advocate and constant presence in his time at sea. Get to know his Ombudsman ,Mom get involved with the Navy Wives they know every thing that I wasn't allowed to talk about some how.Write to him as often as possible (every day) words of support and news from home are so important.
A (Sea Story).West PAC 1983
It was a beautiful day in the South Pacific when we left Subic Bay PI and happily on our way to Singapore for a rare port of call and some well deserved liberty. The water wasn't deep enough for a vessel with a draft as deep as ours. So the entire transit was made on the surface. Rare for a boat like mine an SSN Fast Attack. Every one that cared to was able to go up and enjoy some fresh air and sun. My watch finally ended and I lay to the bridge where the Conning Officer and the look out were. When I arrived I took the watch as lookout so he could make a head call and wedged my self into the pooka. What I witnessed for the next hour was the most wonderful spectacle I'ld ever seen. The bow of the boat was pushing at the surface and formed two whirlpools just forward of the sail on either side of the ship. The water was so clear that the ocean floor looked like dunes of white sand. Then it happened, first one and then another until what seemed like 10 or 15 dolphins were each racing to get ahead of us. It looked like the derby. Then the lead dolphin broached directly ahead of us and began to slow. He made no effort to get out of the way and in a few seconds was being washed over the top of our bow. he slid off on the port side directly beneath me and was being turned over and over in the eddy of churning white water. As he did pirouettes like a sea dervish the happy chatter and sound of laughter got the attention of every one aloft. one after another the creatures took their turn at the fun. This went on for hours. And it donned on me, this was not their first rodeo they had done this before.
QM2SS SMITH
Well said Chief.
Sammy Young said:
Probably should give an update, but not before thanking you all for your (sometimes lively) input. This group is amazing.
The one thing I accepted from the beginning is that I am an observer and an advisor, but my son is an adult and has to make his own decisions one way or the other. He ended up accepting the "undesignated" designation. It has calmed everything down around here but my spirit. I have had to bite my tongue and try my hardest to accept his decision. Like I have said before, we have never been "helicopter" parents, but it doesn't keep us from wanting him to make the right choices.
I have shared everyone's advice with him and he has taken it into consideration and now only time will tell.
Thanks again for all of your wise counsel.
Brad, you are absolutely correct in your opinion. I served on submarines but also did some short stints on the USS Kitty Hawk aircraft carrier, and smaller ships are better- hands down. On a big ship, you get lost in the shuffle easily and it's harder to stand-out for promotion time. On a smaller ship, you worker harder but you are also working in all aspects of your rating (job) than you would on a bird farm, and everybody knows everyone so it's easy to get a good reputation and it's remembered at promotion time. And, the benefits of being on a smaller ship include perks the bird farm guys don't get, such as not having to stand in line for an hour for chow, tighter crew and unit cohesion, get better liberty ports (you can't park a carrier anywhere you want to, where as tin cans can), etc. So in this one case in your son's life, bigger is NOT better! :)
Slightly off topic, but within the same vein, I was out to San Diego this week and ran across a fair amount of sailors and asked their opinions of the Navy and the route they had selected. One thing I did pick up was, if possible, get on a smaller ship. The sailors I spoke with were mostly on the USS Carl Vinson and commented that being on a large ship was much more strict and more tedious. They said, the benefits of being on a small ship is you get more face time with the officers and learn all the duties of the ship.
My son happens to be on a small ship, and I thought the larger ones might be better. Of course, it could just be a case of the grass looking greener on the other side of the fence, but it sounded like none of the sailors I spoke with were considering re-upping.
Just one more thing to consider I guess.
I hope that things have been going well for your son? The entire enlistment process can be very daunting! But as with almost all things, information is power!
First, my opinion. Unless your son is 'just searching for the right fit' I would NOT recommend going in undesignated. Yes, he should have opportunities to strike for a rating within 2 years. But there are many caveats that go with that, so I would not call it a guarantee. I would push for having his contract changed and an A-school assigned. I would agree with those that have said that he should only go Nuke IF he really wants it. But that is just my 2¢.
Now for Information. The truth is that most people in the Navy don't actually know what the rules and regulations actually say. They go on what has been told to them. (Sometimes it is even right) As I have advised both my Daughter and Son-in-law; know the regulations and allow them to work for you. So to assist you and your son following are links to Navy manuals and regulations that should assist you to know what is and isn't possible given your son's situation.
Navy for Moms Page with Links to the Navy Recruiters Manual I would look at Chp IV - Programs & Classification.
Naval Military Personnel Manual Links from Public.navy.mil - You probably want to look in the Personnel section (1000-1999). Section 1133 deals with Recruiting and Section 1220 deals with classification.
Naval Personnel Command Directives and Instructions - I include this for completeness. It has links to nearly all Navy/DoD directives, instructions, etc... that may be referenced in the other documents.
I leave it to you and your son to determine what parts of these documents may be useful to your situation. But I have always found it useful to negotiate from a position where the regulations are on your side.
I hope that this helps. And if you have any specific questions or need further assistance navigating the regs., I would be more than happy to help.
Let's talk numbers:
I retired an Chief Petty Officer with over 20 years and made about $60K a year after I retired in jobs relating to my rating (SK). Meanwhile, my oldest brother was also in the Navy and did 6 years as a NUC and got out and now makes over $650K a year (plus profit sharing) for one of the biggest nuclear power builders in the country. And for what it's worth, the IS rating skills are not in high demand anywhere but in the US Navy. So the answers is simple- the Nuclear Power program is the best free education you're kid will ever get, so nab it if offered!
It just so happens yesterday that I stopped into a recruiters office to try and find out some information so I could turn off my son's phone plan temporarily and met a very upfront recruiter with 18 years in.
While chatting, I had to ask him, since Mike implied recruiters get a bonus, if they get paid in any way for signing up recruits and he assured me, his only bonus was getting to go home early for the day. He did have awards as a top recruiter, and did comment that bringing in Nukes or Seals does get him extra points towards his award though. As I figured, there is no way the Navy would be paying any sort of monetary bonus to recruiters.
With all that said, I have been in sales most of my life, and have actually trained people in sales techniques and can say without a doubt, most recruiters haven't a clue how to sell. I'm sure no one enters the Navy to become a salesman. I have also sat in the room, while waiting for my son, and listening to sales methods and have noted some "misinformation" given to these kids.
The answer is very simple, do your own homework. The best way in any sales experience to get the proper answers is to do your own research. In this way, you can easily detect who to trust and who you can't.
So, to once again summarize my recommendation, based on the military's current strategy of shrinking the armed forces by pushing for ERB for those who are not promoted within target periods, selecting a job is more important than ever.
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