Navy Nukes

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Comment by Steve Kilian on February 8, 2014 at 6:59am

Randall, thanks for the info. I thought that was going to be the answer, but thought I would ask anyway. I still look forward to heading to GS for a visit...it will get me away from the Chicago area for a few days, it will be nice to see temps without a minus sign and not to see snow for a few ays. And the chance to visit with my son is not something I want to pas up.

Comment by Randall Nugent on February 7, 2014 at 5:24pm

Steve, I asked my daughter who's a few months behind your son. The answer is that it's not open to the public, since the graduation ceremony is in a restricted area at the prototype building near the moored training ships.

Comment by Steve Kilian on February 7, 2014 at 5:07pm

Found out my son graduates Prototype in GC later this month! Does anyone know if family allowed at graduation? I plan to go down anyway to take him and maybe a couple shipmates out to dinner to celebrate but would like to attend graduation if possible.

Comment by KTR on February 5, 2014 at 4:39pm

Wait, people succumb to temptation?  I want my money back!

Seriously, folks, if you think your kiddo will first encounter cheating in the Navy, you haven't been paying attention.

I would note that the Charleston incident was precipitated by the report of a sailor who resisted temptation.  Sure, it sucks to be good in this world. Welcome to real life.

2Tim3:12 (among many others) has served my son for longer than he's been in the Navy.  A lot longer. Not that it makes either one of us any better.  Just aware.

Comment by Bubblehead on February 5, 2014 at 3:33pm

I served in the 594 fast attack (USS Permit) from 73-77 (enlisted in 71).  My credentials:  I left as EM1(SS), qualified as EWS & COW (rather unusual to qualify on both ends of the boat).  I went back to school and finish my bachelor's and Ph.D. in mechanical engineering.

"Back in the day", I don't remember much of written exams, other than rate advancement.  (They were pretty easy.)  But, we were constantly drilled and tested in our knowledge.  We even tested each other as a game during long watches.  Anyone who didn't know their job got the "sharp end" of the peer pressure stick.  Our lives all depended on everyone knowing their job.  That was proved more than once.  (Try major flooding at test depth.)

So, although I didn't have much in the way of written tests while on board, I was then and now familiar with unreasonable tests.  An unreasonable test is one which tests for an excessive level of knowledge with severe ramifications if the test score is too low.

That condition invites cheating.  Yes, cheating is wrong, but it does happen.  And, it happens more when your buddy or your chief gives you a little help because they get screwed, too, if you don't do well enough on the test.  (Three section watches become port & starboard while you fix your deficiency, and your buddy misses that long weekend with his wife.)

As far as morale & new sailors...  Not only was I a nuke, but my son is currently a nuke on a fast attack.  His morale was generally high when he reported to his boat, but gradually got beaten down by petty B.S.  (I couldn't wait to get out back in '77.) 

The petty stuff seems to be worse now, than then.  Much less trust in the skill/knowledge of the enlisted by the officers.  Much of that is institutional -- he can't flip a switch without explicit permission from an officer.  It's morale-sucking.

The navy is more professional than it used to be, and that's good.  The drug problems are pretty much cured.  The new uniforms suck.  They pay is better.  But, the pettiness is dominant.  It's just bad leadership (I teach leadership courses, so I have a clue).

Even though my son hates the navy, it has done wonders for him.  He is a man rather than a whining youth.  He knows how to work and work hard.  He has skills and confidence, and I hope it carries him to a successful 2nd chance at college.  (It did precisely that for me.)

I hope that all your active duty sons get the good of the navy, and make the decision at reenlistment time that is best for them.

In the meantime, "Submarines once, submarines twice!  Holy jumpin' ..."  (can't finish that here.)

Comment by Michael E. on February 5, 2014 at 3:11pm

Yes, I agree that cheating is prevalent in all occupations.  It is human nature to "get away with as much or as little  as you can". With that said I hope and pray that your jaded attitude about cheating or getting away with is tempered somewhat when you become a civilian. I feel that some how you have come to accept the cheating or getting away with something is the norm and everyone does it or at least tries to get away with the lying or cheating. Either, to get by or get a promotion .

There are many occupations, the Navy included, that do hold people to high standards and the retribution is swift and painful for those that take advantage of their position.  I for one am going to hope that you did not "cheat" while in the service. You were only observing and that you will be able to get your life together when you get out. 

I too thank you for your service and wish you well in future endeavors.

Comment by lsdemme2001 on February 5, 2014 at 3:02pm

Jeremy,  I understand where you are coming from and while it is disheartening to hear that the cheating is pretty commonplace, it does not surprise me.  I don't think that you sound particularly bitter.  Rather I think you sound like a sailor who has put in his time, and is counting the days to get out.  Which, like it or not, is the case with most enlisted personnel.  

Your statements were matter of fact.  I hate to admit it but you sound just like my son, who has been in as a nuke for almost eight years now.  He has two more to go and he cant wait to get out.  

Like you he is now on shore duty by choice.  He did two deployments to the Persian Gulf and that area of operation.  He would rather die than have to deploy again.  While he is a first class petty officer he has no desire to try for Chief.  He is very disgruntled with what he feels is way too much beauracracy, too many officers who are also just putting in their time and who don't care much about anything, and the poor funding of our military by the present administration that is causing hardship for our service members.  

I don't think your attitude and outlook is too very different from 90% of those serving. While cheating should never be condoned and should be dealt with accordingly when found, your pointing out the prevalance of it does not make you disgruntled, it simply makes you someone who is saying what most do not want to hear.  

Best of luck to you as you finish your commitment to the Navy.  

Comment by jeremy mcelroy on February 5, 2014 at 2:44pm

The bitterness I show is just common practice of how people in the Navy sort of vent off the things they are disgruntled about. I don't hate the Navy and am thankful for things it has given me. I would do a full 20 but I do not like going out to sea and having to be away from family and society in general. I would have gotten out years ago but unfortunately spent multiple years putting myself in a place that made it hard for me to do that financially. Family comes first so sticking it out with something you know you don't want to make a career is just something you have to do.

 

I didn't come to post about the cheating to make people think bad about the Navy, the program, their child or the people they work with. Just was putting it out that I have personal experience with it and that it is a much more common thing than people may think.

Comment by Brian E. Moore on February 5, 2014 at 2:31pm

@ James, I didn't realize that you were still active. Disgruntle might have been the wrong word. I agree that "cheating" goes on in every profession and school. I am not disputing that. I have been in Law Enforcement the past 22+ years and am an adjunct instructor at the police academy. And yes I see it all the time. I was a Grunt in the Marines so can't say I saw it there. We didn't have to test for promotions. I guess to a point as an instructor I am guilty when I tell recruits "pay attention to this because you will see it again before the end of the day". 

You sound very bitter towards the Navy in general. I am sure you have good reason. But if it was/is that bad why didn't you get out a long time ago?

Let me end by thanking you for you're service. I do hope it your last few years fly by, are more enjoyable and you stay safe.

Comment by Richard A on February 5, 2014 at 1:23pm

Let me chime in as someone that has had a 25 year career in higher education.  

Cheating happens.  It happens with engineering, massage therapy, history, and even politics (plagiarism runs especially rampant in that discipline).  I'm not surprised to hear it happens with NNPTC.  We're talking about a high stress, program with several 100 percent exams.

The proper course of action is to discipline cheating when it arises, and to ensure that cheating by itself does not determine whether or not you pass the program.  

Given there are tree highly challenging courses that a nuke must pass before they step onto a boat - I feel fairly confident that these students are competent.  Given the long-term safety record of the Navy's nuclear program, I'm even more confident.   Since roughly half of all Nuclear candidates do not succeed - I think there's a decent amount of rigor in the program.  

I am comfortable with the safeguards in NNPTC.  Sure - cheating needs to be addressed.  However, I think I'd still the Navy's nukes to be running the reactor safely and effectively.  

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